SPEAKER_02 0:00

Carrie's nervous system said, things are going too well. Let's ruin it.

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Sure did. And Julian Michael said, hold my microphone. That's the episode. Honestly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Born This Way starts right now.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Welcome to Born This Way, a weight loss podcast exploring the identity whiplash of untangling a lifetime of body shame. And realizing a smaller size doesn't quiet a bully in our heads. So pull up a chair. Preferably not anything plastic or a rickety stool.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

A quick note: we're not doctors or dietitians. The show is for entertainment for me, and all views are personal and our own. So don't sue us. Please.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

Oh my gosh. Yeah. What a week it has been. What a week it has been, ma'am.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

And yes. I think we got some big stuff to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

We got some big stuff in uh I don't. You do. You got some big stuff in your just life happening. And then there's like, you know, big stuff in the zeitgeist, I think we want to talk about. And I'm excited about this week's episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Me too. Can I tell you? Listen, I hate to keep fucking talking about them, but like I feel like all I see now on TikTok is people bitching about Southwest. It's like Southwest after Southwest after Southwest. I turned our algorithm into it for sure. Correct. Like I have really created a fucking monster over there. You know, they're doing it to themselves. And people are like, like I've people are now just like straight up recording the agents and like just saying, like, this is what's happening to me right now. Like, and it's like I it's a it's a mess though. Like I feel so bad for those people too. Like it's just such a fucking uh we've covered it enough. We don't need to keep talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

I just wanted to say, I think it's so funny that like it is funny, and I think maybe if they wanted it to stop, they could tell them to stop.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

So that's true. I think it would be, in fact, as simple as that.

unknown 2:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

They're not doing it though. It's almost like they want to run it themselves.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

It's almost like I don't know. Yeah, yeah. And now I'm starting, I'm starting to see it spidered into other complaints now, too. Like this morning. So now I'm not just getting my algorithm's like, maybe we're gonna test the waters with some non-fat, shamey Southwest thing. So, like this morning, it was a woman who's like, listen, we paid for the extra legroom seats and we were in the seventh row. And my gosh, I have never in my life ever heard a coat as loud as the coat that you have just put on your body. I got that professional voice over mic. God. Like that sound effect. Seriously, I felt for a second I was like, is she did we get like an ad for like a winter something? And she's like subtly putting an ad copy here.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

I got a retainer from this brand to me. This is what my video is doing. When I was trying to get back in the room. This is what my video is doing. Well, of course. And the only reason I did it is because I get so rebbed up that I get these, I have, you know. Yes, I uh said you're trying to I'm trying to cover up my rash, my it's not a rash, it's um I flush. What's that? Got that Irish blood in me. Okay. So flush. Sad, happy, tired. Uh drink alcohol, drink caffeine. So anyway. Yes. You're welcome.

SPEAKER_03 4:03

Zip, zip.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

That'll be what is this? This is actually, I think this is um, I think this is Calvin Klein. So if they want to call, call me.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Hey Calvin Klein, give us a call. Happy to help in any way. Love your zippers. Uh yeah, big fans, big, big fans of those zippers. I mean, just listen to her. She just can't stop herself. No, I did not mean to um No, it's so great. Okay, so I think I was saying though that that like now my algorithm's like, okay, let's let's see if you really hate Southwest more than just this fat stuff.

unknown 4:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

So now it was a woman who was mad at them. Yeah, she's like, we paid for the extra legroom seats, and they're not even that much more leg room, and it was row seven, but they don't police the bin space, so we had to put our bags all the way back in row 22. So then we ended up not even being able to get off the plane. So what's the point of being in row seven? So it's like Southwest has really fumbled around and fucked it up, sounds like, in a real big way. Right?

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Like they sound like me when I'm trying to cuss in front of my kids.

SPEAKER_03 5:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

I can't, I could do one and I just have to add it in there.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Yes. Absolutely. Anyway, so so but we're not gonna talk about Southwest anymore because for God's sake.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Um how's your week been, ma'am?

SPEAKER_02 5:21

It's been busy. I'm tired. I'm happy.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

No, this is my Chicago City coat.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Oh, sorry, yes, of course. Okay, so you've had a busy week this week. Cold all the time. I think it's the GLP once, honestly. Because I was cold before and I am always cold. So, but then when I get hot, it's like an emergency. I'm like, get out of my way. I'll push my kids over to get out the front door and stand outside.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Every man for themselves. Listen, you either care about cooling off or you don't. See out there.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Something is wrong with me though, because I sleep with an electric blanket and I'm like, I'm freezing. I know, right? That's what my husband and then I wake up absolutely now. I have to shower every morning, though, because I wake up absolutely the pool of your own sweat. Right. And I'm like, I'm so cold. My husband is like, clearly, your body is not.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah, I think he's trying to tell you something. Good night. Boy, oh boy. Okay, so your week has been cold.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

It's been cold. Um, and I have I need to be, I need to catch up on sleep. So hopefully I can get some of that tonight. But I just have been working so much. Um, and then like just other stuff. Whatever, whatever I'm doing, I don't know. I feel like I'm so busy and then I can't really explain what I'm doing. But yeah. It's laundry time. I'll tell you what. That laundry room. Is it ever not laundry time? You would send a you would submit me to a reality show. I would see like hoarders or something like that. That super nanny. Uh oh yeah, Stream Home Makeover. Um speaking of reality shows. No. Tell me about I want to talk about your week.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Yeah, that's been a week.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Because I think you had a really important discovery this week about something that a lot of our audience experiences that we ha that we haven't I we haven't talked about before.

SPEAKER_03 7:31

Yeah, I don't know that we've ever touched on it here, and I don't know that I've done a whole lot of thinking about it. So I I I'm gonna explain what happened to me because I had an evening uh this week. Uh an evening where um I had had a a really I had a really big day uh on Wednesday. Like busy? Yeah, um well I've I've I've there have been a lot of wonderful things that are happening in my life, a lot of great changes. Um I have said countless times along this journey that um what I thought I was doing was like trying to lose weight, but what I've really been doing is just changing how I understand and interact with myself, how I interact with the world. And most of the journey has has been less about weight loss and more about these amazing mental changes that I'm making. Learning to love myself, learning to be open to opportunities, learning to see the world from a state of gratitude and curiosity and wonder and not of shame and judgment and all of these negative things that I've just been carrying around for so long.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Learning what you're capable of, signing up for a triathlon, do we have to mutters? Yeah. That's another big part of it. I've seen it.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Yes, absolutely. Yes. And really like yeah, like discovering uh things about myself that I didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

So I you know, previously my coping mechanisms were always to eat food. And I um I'm gonna talk about binge eating because that's that's who I am and who I was. Uh and so I would I would have binge eating episodes, particularly during times of high stress or uh when I felt like things were getting out of control. When things are spinning out of control, that's a really hard thing for me. I start to feel overwhelmed and anxious, uh, like I'm losing control over things. And so my response has always been to eat, to soothe that feeling, to numb numb out that feeling. My tendency in the past has absolutely been to to to stuff my feelings, to numb my feelings because I'm feeling overwhelmed and anxious. Right? You that's you resonate with that, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Uh yes, ma'am. Yeah, that's exactly how I've gained my weight. Yeah. I've lived my life, actually. Yeah. Not just gained my weight, but how I lived.

SPEAKER_03 10:01

Yeah, like it's been my constant friend, right? Like it's always been there. Absolutely. So, um, so what I found myself what what happened on Wednesday is that I found myself experiencing a lot of the abundance and the joy and the good things in my life. Wednesday was the last day of that class that I had with that coach. And we got this amazing session, an hour and a half, where we got to watch him live coach people on big questions like, why have I hated myself for my entire life? And he would just have this person would have like a fucking epiphany breakthrough. I mean, it was like I sobbed the entire time. It was the most beautiful thing watching other people love themselves and just accept that they're lovable. My God. It was it was real, it was a real transcendent kind of experience.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

And that day I also um I also Which by the way, I just said about an hour ago to Chloe because we were running late and out of gas almost, and sorry, to my daughter. And I was like, Hey, you know what Carrie taught me we could ask ourselves right now? She's like, What? And I was like, What's awesome about this? Yes, and Chloe goes, um, I'm eating chicken nuggets. And I was like, You're eating chicken nuggets.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Hell yes. That makes anything awesome, by the way. But I just wanted to throw that out there. I love that. Really stuck with me. Yes, isn't it great? Like it's a good thing. And I was real pissed off when I asked that.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

So I'm proud of myself.

SPEAKER_03 11:21

It's that's the that's the place to use it the most, right? Like, I will tell you that my my friend who had taken the class before me, I've had a couple times even since taking the class, because he's taken it too, that we will ask each other that when we're when we're presenting each other with a hard thing, we'll be like, what's awesome about that? Like it's a it's a really cool tool to have in your toolbox. So anyway, I finished that class. I'm feeling fucking radiant and amazing and full of love. Like my whole world is love and everything is love, and I'm just open to love and just everything. And um, and then I, you know, I've been, I have this new person in my life, and it's been really that's been a fun thing that I've been exploring. And uh, I had a lovely conversation with that person. That felt really grounded and aligned and felt like a really honest conversation. And then I was presented with a an overwhelmingly incredible professional opportunity that like kind of stops me in my tracks a little bit when I think about it. And uh and so I went home and I was feeling something, and so I I ate dinner and I made a perfectly normal for me dinner, right? Um, and I noticed that I ate my whole dinner um past the point of fullness. Like I wasn't I was full and I continued to eat my whole dinner, which is not a normal habit for me anymore. Um, I don't just eat something because I've portioned it out and so now I'm gonna eat it all. Right? Like I I don't do that. So I ate past full. And then I I still said, All right, well, I'm gonna have a treat at treat time because it's, you know, I I have a sweet treat after my meal for a treat. And then I had a treat. And then I was like, boy, I'm really full now. Like I'm I'm overly full. And I remember this old familiar feeling and I like it. I want to push past it, I want to override that feeling, and it hurt. Like it did not feel comfortable. I was not physically comfortable. And I even said to myself in the moment, wow, I haven't felt this in a long time. This physically uncomfortable feeling of having eaten past fullness to overly full. Now it wasn't a binge because I wasn't in binge territory yet. But I was getting there because in my head I'm going, oh, I haven't felt this feeling in a while. Oh, yeah. This I am hardwired. It's like hardwiring in my brain to push past that feeling. Because it's what I've done my whole life. I overwrite it. I just go for it. I lean into it and I fucking binge. All right, baby, listen, we're already full. We already ate some, we already ate some treats. Let's fucking go for it. Now let's make it a half a dozen cookies. Yeah, why not polish off that whole pizza or whatever it is, right? Um, and so what happened in that moment is that I recognized it. Like I was able to sort of, this is one of the things that I've been trying to learn in this class is how to step outside yourself and kind of observe yourself.

unknown 14:15

Right?

SPEAKER_03 14:15

You kind of detach from yourself and you see yourself. And I'm like, okay, what's let me see what fucking what's happen what's happening here. Because I'm feeling that overly full feeling that I haven't felt in a really long time. And I'm recognizing it as uncomfortable and not pleasant. And yet my brain still wants me to do it anyway. My brain is seeking comfort. My brain is seeking the the numbness, the comfort, the the soothing that comes with the food because my brain knows that the food will produce the soothing feeling. So then I'm saying, why do you need soothing? Why do you need comfort? What's going on in your life right now? Everything's so good. Look at the day you just had. You had a fucking, like I if you ever watch Sturdy Rock, it's like the reagoning episode. I I think we've talked about that on here before, but I was like, Oh, we have an episode titled that I was fucking regaining, dude. Like I was regaining. Why do I need food to soothe me if I'm reagoning?

SPEAKER_04 15:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 15:18

And then it hit me. Like it was so obvious. I am scared. I've said it on the show before that I'm terrified. Um, I'm down 98 pounds now. I am two pounds away from that big number. And it is a scary, scary feeling. Because right, because I just want to go, wait a minute. I've lost a lot of weight before and gained it all back. Plus, because I'm an overachiever, you know, an extra 40 or 50 LBs. Right? Like it's fucking scary to be here again and go, how do I not, how do I hold on to it so tightly that I don't let it go this time? But then you know how that works. The more tightly you hold on to something, the more likely you are to just squeeze it to death. So how do I like that's the metaphor for all of this? It's like, how do I just let these things that are good be things that are good?

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Well, I was gonna say for I was it was so I was so surprised initially uh that you said you're scared. Because when I was first hearing this story, my thought was she's emotional eating is not always for negative eating, she's celebrating.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Was what I thought. But then when you did that work and you dug around a little bit and you did find a negative emotion in there, and it was fear, which isn't it always exce you know, but we talk about like big events, social events, like that's when you know, but you were if you were truly been like you were pushing past being comfortable, yeah. There's something else you're pushing down, which isn't necessarily celebrating. And I missed that until you pointed it out.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

Yeah. Because it could have been that, right, Lise? Like it could have been me just going, Fuck yeah, look at me, I'm reagoning, and then I would go fucking celebrate with a bitch.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

I deserve. I deserve this.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Is my reward, baby? Look at how good I was. Now I get to have this because I did all this. Now I get to make myself feel like this. God, I can't. I never fucking never in my fucking life do I feel more seen than when I talk to you, ma'am. Good night. Okay, so yeah, all that, right? All those things. And so, but I realized in that moment, absolutely, that this was not a celebration. This was a, I'm fucking scared. I and I and my and it again comes down to this idea that I am just trying so hard to embrace being present.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

And I it it your girl has a real hard time with this, y'all. Like I'm always thinking about the future. And so I'm not thinking, oh, this is sad, this is what a wonderful thing to get to enjoy. I'm I'm feeling all of this abundance and gratitude. I have these wonderful people in my life and this wonderful network of humans. And right, like I, you know, I'm I've been given this really cool new opportunity and I'm being recognized for these wonderful things. And God, it's so good to be mean. Big time stuff. Yes. And instead I'm going, oh, for what do I do when this goes away? How do I make how do I hold on to this so I don't? Oh my God, I'm gonna fuck this up so badly. Like I can't I I can't do these things. Oh my God, I'm an imposter. How do what? Like, just all of these thoughts. And some of them are, I'm so scared of losing it. Like I can't even enjoy having it because all I can think about is losing the thing that I've just gotten. Like I didn't even hurt. Yes, like not even for a fucking whole day. Not even for a full hour, I think. Was I like anyway? It was really helpful for me to realize this because what I did in the moment was said, Oh, yeah, I'm really scared. I'm real scared. I don't feel like I deserve any of these things. That's the real hard part.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

I feel like yeah, I don't feel like I deserve them. And part of that is not not just because I think I'm a, you know, worthless piece of shit or whatever I used to say to myself, because I don't think that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Um, and I and I'm I'm saying that and and believing that I don't believe that about myself anymore. I do not categorically. Um but not thinking that about myself doesn't necessarily mean that all of a sudden I think I deserve this abundance of things. Right. So that's like that would be a real wide shift. I'm getting there. I'm getting to that point. You don't deserve them or you can't keep them. It's both of them. It's a, it's a, it's a combo special. Because I don't think that I deserve the good things or I'm not good enough to have the things. Like the professional one, especially is a very much like a, oh my God, right? Like, what? Don't you want a grown-up for that job? Should that be for a grown up?

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Every place that hires me.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

Yes. And listen, I know I know how to be a grown-up, but like it's one of it was one of those, right? Where I'm like, oh my God, is there a kids' table I'm supposed to sit at while y'all are doing your thing? Oh stuff. Yeah, yeah. It's a really exciting thing.

SPEAKER_04 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

And so anyway, it was just real scary because I'm like, oh God, I'm I don't deserve this, or I'm not good enough for this. All of those things. Like it. And I do think that a big, big part of it. I think especially when it comes to the like the realm of like people and connections and abundance. It's like I can't, this can't last. Yeah. And um, I actually just watched a podcast recently where this this guy whose program I just did coached this woman on this exact thing. She could never enjoy her success because she was constantly worried about what would happen if it would go away. So she put so much pressure on herself to make sure that she kept everything just so that it wouldn't go away. Oh my gosh. Instead of enjoying it. Correct. And I mean, is that not a fucking not instead of, but not leaving any room to correct. And I was like, this is what is this is a constant refrain, right? Like who among us would not identify with that? We we don't allow ourselves to just be present in the moment because we're constantly fucking worried about the outcome or the future, how we can hold on to this and make it last, and we put so much pressure on ourselves instead of just letting like this this flow state of like one of the things he told the woman on the podcast was like, listen, just because you're thinking about all of it, it's not gonna make those hard things any easier when they get here. Nothing that you're doing right now is gonna make that hard stuff any easier. It's not. That's a really good point. Yeah. Like it's gonna, it's gonna hurt. It's got some of these things are really gonna hurt. They're gonna bring you to your knees. They're gonna happen. It's not if, it's when. Right. And there's nothing that you can do about it.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

That's the terrifying part of being a human.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

Right. But it but you know what's beautiful about it?

SPEAKER_02 21:57

What's awesome about it?

SPEAKER_03 22:00

It's not even what I was thinking, really, but like I was just thinking about how beautiful it is that it is only through those experiences that we are able to see the others in such a beautiful lens and light, right? Like those good experiences wouldn't be nearly as good if we didn't have the horrible experiences to be equally as horrible. I don't know. It's like there's something really beautiful in all of the give and take. The wabi-sabi of it all is Biebs and I would say. It's the wobbi sabi. Yeah. Anyway. So it was a really cool realization that I had. And I was really proud of myself because I I stopped in the moment. I went inside myself and said, What's going on here? Why do I feel like I need to eat? Why do I feel like I need to soothe? And I I figured it out. I named it out loud. I reached out to a couple of friends and made a couple of journals about it. I didn't eat anymore. I was actually in a calorie deficit still on the day because I didn't binge. I didn't do, you know, what I would normally have done.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

I am thrilled that we're talking about this because I'm still so far from being away from that I deserve it. Not even I deserve it, but like that I'm capable. Like I'm I was trying to sit here and be like, well, what have I succeeded at? So it's like I'm clearly so far away from care, like giving myself credit for anything. So it's hard for me almost to relate to that. But it's something I never really explored until I heard you talk about this the other night because my brain immediately jumped to like, oh, well, she's celebrating. And then when I was like, when like I really figured out when you really said what it was, it was like scary for me to hear because I was scared of the same things. And it made me feel this almost sadness of like when because there's always been this like undercurrent in my life of like when I'm overweight or when I'm no longer overweight. Then my life will really begin. Then I'll allow myself to be. So so then what I'm hearing from you is like, you're having all these things happen to you, and it's like I feel like I'm behind it a bit in a couple different ways, but like it scared me to think like I'm never gonna not feel like a human. And we talked about that last week, I think, where we talked about we've talked about a lot of people who lived a life overweight. Like you don't really know what it was that was holding you back, what wasn't from the weight. And then that's when you really start learning who you are. Because for me, and I think a lot of other people I know who have lived their life overweight, or as a big person, all of the flaws, all of the bad relationships, all of the bad decisions can be pinpointed easily to like, well, if I hadn't been overweight. And so then when that's so then when you're not not just the weight part, but then when things like because you're doing so much like holistic work around everything with yourself and your mindset and your strength mentally and physically, that it's like you are seeing these this incoming wave of the fruits of that. Yeah. And the intensity of that sounds like a lot of not pressure, but pressure to keep it because my brain has always told myself, I'm not ever gonna be thin because I would have to suffer to get it. Right. And so I that tells me that I have a belief that it's gonna be painful. It would be painful and temporary unless I was permanently suffering for something. Right. That it couldn't just be free-flowing, that it couldn't just be the now of me being happy, it'd always be hap having to be either suffering being overweight or suffering being a normal weight.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Right. Because either way there's suffering.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

I don't think I did a good job explaining that, but No, I got you.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

Either way there's suffering, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

And that's and after a lifetime of being like, oh, one day I can relax, and then being like, wait a minute, I can't ever fucking relax.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

Not so fast. What do you mean? Yeah. Yeah. It's a little disheartening. Well, it's like how I it's how I feel when I hear people who have, you know, crossed the other side, right? People who are on the maintenance journey and who have been on it for a long time say, Boy, I really had a lot of food noise today. I really struggled with, you know, I wanted to eat today. And I mean, of course, because I don't know that it's ever gonna go away forever, forever, forever. Anyway, so it was a wonderful realization. I was real thrilled that I stayed within my I I just the biggest win, honestly, was just the the realization and the stopping of the pattern and realizing it and just not acting on it. Like disrupting the pattern is so huge.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yeah, and it's so effective for not only not a doctor, neuroplasticity, right? Um, but also self-esteem is so hard. I I'm still not in a place where once I've decided it's on. It's a freight train. I have to get ahead of it too. It is so you were able to jump in there and do that.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

It was huge. I'm proud of you.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

Thank you. Good job. And then I just felt real, yeah, like then I was like real excited, like, oh boy, the fact that I was able to disrupt that pattern just felt real big. So I think it's that it's a combination of all of those wonderful things that happened on Wednesday and also this background right of like being so close to a big number that I've never seen, like I've never lost a hundred pounds. I've lost 85 pounds before. Okay. And then gained it all back plus bonus weight. Um, but I've never been in this territory where I've lost this much weight. Now, I'm not into what we would call um in the weight loss biz, virgin fat territory. Virgin fat. Tell me more. I don't what is this term?

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Like the weight you've never been?

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Yeah, like virgin fat territory is like, I mean, at some point, obviously I was this weight coming up at some point, but like I know, I know my number.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

I know my number for where virgin's. Correct. Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

I know my number two. And um, I'm still, oh, let's see. I'm still gonna carry the two. I'm still about 30 pounds from that, right? Because I gained I gained a lot more back when I regained my 85 pounds. Mm-hmm. But anyway, the fact that I'm approaching that, that number, I think is also contributing to that. Like, oh God, uh, how is this how is your mind so well? Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of fuckery. A lot of fuckery. Speaking of fuckery, uh let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

The O word.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Last week, uh I think it came out. There's a YouTube channel that put out a video. It looks like it's a series.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Is it like it's meant to be a series of something? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

I'm trying to recall the name of the show itself, but Surrounded. I think most people know it as Gillian Michaels vs. 20 body positivity activists. What a wonderful idea.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Yeah, it's called Surrounded. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Surrounded, wonderful. I've seen it before with other people, but sound bites of it started popping up on my TikTok, and the things that were being said were wild. And we were we started this podcast. Not big fans of her are on our very first episode because of the biggest loser documentary. So I felt very compelled to watch this and felt very differently after I watched it. You want to give a little background into it?

SPEAKER_03 29:11

I will. When Lisa texted me about it and asked me if I was watching it, I had to tell her shout out to David, who had sent me a note about this and said, Hey, are you are you watching this show? Because yeah, he was like, I really think like it's really fascinating. So I know I know I gotta go check it out. So the show is called Surrounded because you the the one person basically is gonna take them on and debate all of their clay, they're bringing claims and they're gonna debate against all the people in the room. So there's 20 people in the room and they're act they have varying levels and spheres of expertise. So in this episode, for example, there was like somebody who was a nutritionist.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Yeah, I I realize now I've watched this before. It was a conservative traditionalist versus 20 trans activists, was one that I've watched before. I I was aware of the format of the show, and I was like, oh boy, this is gonna be interesting for her. And I walked away from it feeling a lot of things.

SPEAKER_03 30:07

Yeah, I know. You're having layered, complicated feelings about what you saw. So let's unpack it. Let's do it. Well, how did you feel about it? Well, I so listen, full disclosure, don't come for me. I've only watched like 30 minutes of it. Yeah, but you saw the big sound bites. Yes. And what I was most disappointed by, I think, was as the person who's going to sit in the chair to debate her, have some expertise in the area that you're arguing. Because it felt to me like, for example, the claim might have been um about uh medical risks of obesity. And then someone came up who is like not in that space in any way. Like, I mean, they're not even doing anything medically related. Right. But they would go up and try to argue that claim. It's like, why wouldn't you come up to the claim where you're talking about corporate exploitation if you're the marketing strategist? Like that's your voted the one that most matches your yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

And they started that was the first girl, too, I think, right? She was like, Do you know what lipotoxicity is? Yes. And the woman was like, I no, but I blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

And it's like, no, that's a I gotta tell you, as somebody who has um operated in the sphere of debate, um, it was real hard to watch some of those people essentially make like a s a red herring argument. And it's like, no, no, no, you're you're not refute you're not even refuting the claim. You're just like bringing up something completely irrelevant. And it was maddening to watch it from that perspective.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

I bet. Oh, you're a great person to, yeah, um have that take care of it.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Yeah, like it wasn't good argumentation. It was a good one.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

No, and that was my my first immediate takeaway where I thought this is a woman who's been on television for over 20 years, professional public speaker, and someone who has been on camera comfortably, has been on television comfortably in front of millions of people as a celebrity. Wouldn't for you can pay me a million bucks to get in there and argue with somebody who had that kind of experience, even if I fully believed in myself and my side.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

Right. Because like you're already up against so much.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

She was she was so poised, she incredibly poised. And compared to the people that were, you know, stuttering, that's how I would have been. That's how I am. Yeah, they were very if I'm unprepared at all, if I don't have like a sticky note and somebody brings me up. I'm a terrible debater.

unknown 32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

That night I'll be sitting in bed and be like, I should have fucking said this, you know, I'm that kind of the postmortem.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

Yeah. So yeah, I felt real similar. Yeah, it was maddening to try to watch the people debate by not even addressing the claims that were being presented, right? It's like you, yeah, that was really frustrating to watch. Right. Um yeah, and so it it did, I do feel a bit like the experts, quote unquote, in the room did a bit of a disservice to the entire premise of it because if, you know, if they were trying to stay aligned on their purpose or their sphere of expertise, I feel like they could have maybe had more impact in in challenging this woman to a debate. I will also say I have, I need to own my partiality here. Like I have some feelings about this um on both sides of the coin. This is a real hard one for me to take a hard line on and say yes or no to either of these. There's a so much nuance involved.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

Yeah. I agree. And I felt that as well.

SPEAKER_03 33:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Very deeply. I think objectively, the takeaway for everyone that I was seeing on the internet was that she decimated those people. And that's what it felt like watching it. Some of the sound bites of some of the people, the big ones they took away, were I didn't like the things that those people said. And I understood why they were sound bites because it was absolute rage bait. One of the dietitians posted a blog post about it. Oh, fascinating. Oh, I love that. And she said her brother warned her not to go on the show, said it was a uh it's a content crew, it's a social it's yeah, social content channel. It's on YouTube. So they're gonna pull the clips just like we do. We post clips from this show that we know are gonna piss off people that don't like fat people to get engagement on our TikTok. This is that's marketing. Exactly. We know what we're doing, and uh that show absolutely knows what it's doing. So they pulled some things that I were that I felt were asinine that some of those people said that made me really want to side with her. That blog post from the dietitian talked about how because it was set up that way, because it was sound bites, because she was allowed to speak the whole time, and there was little parts of people speaking on there about their different like micro areas of expertise, it gave her a bigger platform for her bullshit to spew her bullshit, as this lady said. And I want to put that out there that she that we that she did say that. Also saying that I had an experience with an intuitive eating dietitian, which several of these people that were on that panel are. I did not like it. A lot of the reasons I didn't like it, I saw in those people debating Julian Michael, and it started to make me really start to believe. I used to question, like, uh the body positivity, you know, like I I there was a time in my life we talked about where I had accepted, I felt like I had accepted my weight. This was your yep, this was just what I was gonna be. I body positivity, body neutrality was a big thing for me. I would have been probably hanging out with several people on that panel. My friend groups were full of people like that panel. I was in a progressive city in a theater community. I really leaned into that for a period of my life where I saw this intuitive dietitian. Now, having, you know, lost a significant chunk of weight the last couple years of my life and doing it in a way that is different than I've done it before, where it's more sustainable and maybe more intuitive. I've even leaned further away from how I feel about that movement. And that makes me from six, seven years ago sad. I feel weird saying that out loud, but I that is very much true. Yes. And I look back on who I was at that time and I I, for me, I absolutely believe that there's people up there who did not feel this way. For me, I was still sad inside. I was still wanting to be different. And so watching this blew my mind because I feel like I've sat on both sides of that table. Absolutely. The way they set it up made her look so good and makes made some of those people's points sound so bad. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

The format was real bad. Uh, it sounds like a lot of people are real pissed off at Jubilee, the producer of the show. Uh, and someone even said they purposely like they tried to rage bait by purposely getting dumb dumbs on the show. I don't think that's a very kind thing to say.

SPEAKER_02 37:05

It's not, but that was why I did the research. I was like, wait a minute.

unknown 37:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Are there other body positive activists out there watching this saying, like, oh, they should have had me on there? I'm sure there were.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Did they represent that movement well?

SPEAKER_03 37:20

It's so fucking polarizing and triggering. Uh-huh. But again, many people were saying the whole point of this was to polarize and trigger people, right? It is intended to be rage-based. Exactly. And they did a great job of it. That's what it is. Because a lot of people are talking about it. But I was gonna say they sure did. Everybody's yeah, there's a whole lot of people talking about it.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

A lot of people a lot of the things I saw in defense of the activist, was that she got away with getting on stage again, telling people to hate themselves. Like right here, it says the they came at her as if she was claiming you should all hate your body. She didn't, she did not say that. I she was talking about healthy versus unhealthy. That is so tricky. I know that word is like even I try not to even say it to my kids. We because I'm so used to like neutrality in disorder eating and body. Yes, it's very it's become a value-laden word. Right. So I even avoid it. We use nutritious in my house. We don't tell our kids that's unhealthy food or that's junk food. We say that's nutritious food and that's not nutritious food. And a lot of the claims she made, I agree with. They are clinically proven, but it I feel like this whole thing boiled down to mental health versus physical health.

SPEAKER_03 38:38

I think, I think that's it too. Yeah, it's real nuanced, and I know. I just I can't wait for the people to come for us because they're all coming. I know, but I want to hear from them. Stamps needs to come and yeah, because I don't, I don't, I don't know what to think about this. I really don't.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

I'd like I I would love to hear, I know that we could easily be like, oh, we side with the activists and get a million people to comment. You guys that are defending her, there's a dime a dozen, like we get you every week on our especially with the Southwest Airlines. Y'all came out. They came out hard, even on TikTok defending. They did. Like they did. People told us to go around the cargo entrance. And I was like, I texted it to my husband. I was like, four out of ten, joke-wise. But I would love to hear, I'm not disagreeing with her on a lot of this. So I would love to hear on J with Jillian. Yeah. Right. The people who felt different about it because man, yes, it was probably absolutely geared towards hers the format, the editing, her background was definitely geared toward her winning. But I would be more interested to hear from people who uh I don't know. Legendary fitness trainer cooks fat acceptance. Fat acceptance advocates. Even the way people are phrasing it, like the fat shamers loved it, and that sucks.

SPEAKER_03 39:50

I wonder who wrote the claims. Did she write the claims? Because the the way that a claim is written matters in the way that you can uphold and defend it. And what kind of ground you're expected to cover. And I know this isn't a true debate show, but like some of the claims, like current discourse oversimplifies the complexities of disordered eating. I don't know who would argue against that. But that's almost a a tr a truism. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

That's why we're you and I are here. Those what those people were fighting for is why you and I started the show.

SPEAKER_03 40:25

Or the medical risks of obesity cannot be ignored. Like that's again feels like a truism. Yes, of course, we shouldn't ignore medical risks of it. There's very little ground to debate there. Sure. But there are scientifically proven medical risks associated with obesity. Right. Factual. That's a different argument than healthy at any size, loving my body, accepting my body. So, like, do you understand what I mean when I say like the claim the way that it's written is real difficult to argue?

unknown 40:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

Like it would have been there would have been more grounds for debate if this was written in a way that wasn't so like this is a scientifically proven fact already.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

How how do you give anyone any credibility when you open it by forcing them to disagree with clinical something clinical? And that's what they were kind of forcing these people to do is either disagree with it or avoid it so that they could make their point. And then once they did that, who cares what they were saying? Because you're like, wait a minute, what? You don't believe that? Well, I can't believe anything you're about to say then.

SPEAKER_03 41:29

To me, that would indicate if you don't give if you don't concede that there are medical risks associated with obesity, that tells me that you are unwilling to use rationality, right? I will say the one that I thought was the most appropriate to debate was the body positivity movement is fundamentally disempowering. That's there is grounds to debate that. That to me feels like a that to me feels like I would I would enjoy a healthy discussion about that.

SPEAKER_04 41:53

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

And that particular claim feels like a better claim for everyone in the room to have had some reasonable contribution to. So again, when we talk about the medical risks of obesity, I don't want the fucking peanut gallery of I'm an artist who creates these things or I'm a like I get it, you add value. I'm not saying you don't add value, but in this particular claim, your value is not that you're not you're not value added to this conversation. Add your value, and the movement is fundamentally disempowering. Great. And everyone has room to play in that sandbox. That's I guess that's a that's one of the things for me. That's a really good point. And then the other thing I think is uh just like anything in this life, yeah, I can't walk away from this and go like, yeah, Gillian fucking nailed it. She's great and I love her and she won. Um I think she I think she certainly uh carried more of the claims and won most of the arguments. Uh, but again, there are many nuanced reasons why that happened. The show accomplished what the show was trying to accomplish. What I would love to see. And here's one thing I do appreciate is that Jillian Michaels' willingness to put herself out amongst these people. I appreciate that, that she's willing to face 20 of her biggest critics, right? Like I like that she wasn't afraid of that and she came into it. I do think that in her there is like a compassionate, a person who has some empathy for biggins. But I think she exec the way that she executed is oftentimes not an approach that I prefer.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

I always was like, when I even watched the show, it was like, I'm gonna get on Bob's team. I'm not getting fucking yelled at. Yeah, but never gonna be like, I never wanted to be. I don't like aggressive personalities. I don't like when people try and beat the s empathy and sensitivity out of me to make me more confident. Okay. Yeah. And a lot of people have. Yeah. Yeah, it's never really worked for me either. So I can see how that didn't hit with us, right? Can I play a couple clips from the show to give some context about what we're talking about? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Nice to meet you. I'm an eating disorder therapist. I'm gonna do my best to not use the O word because I find it um pretty offensive. Uh so I'm gonna use fat bodied uh as we talk.

SPEAKER_04 43:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Um, do you understand why people find it harmful and triggering?

SPEAKER_00 44:04

Overweight and obese is literally just having too much body fat. It has nothing to do with the quality of the person.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Yeah, I agree with you on that. Are are we gonna debate the claim?

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Yeah, I just wanted to That was the first one that I heard and was like, yeah, I love Julian's response, by the way, because she did say obesity and overweight are like clinical terms for excess body fat. And this woman was pushing for fat-bodied instead, which is interesting because I that feels to me like it's much more of a polarizing thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

You and I have literally talked about how I'm uncomfortable using that word. Like when we started this, I was like, I don't want to refer to my, I don't, and I constantly, even earlier in this episode, was catching myself being like overweight. Oh, uh, I mean, uh because I've been tiptoeing around this shit my whole life, and the terms change and what upsets people changes. And even as a not thin person, I've had to like kind of worry about how to like say those things. So that was really interesting there. That right away because I saw an intuitive eating dietitian at a point in my life, and this is my biased. This was not probably okay for me, but I judged her because she was very small and I clocked her as having been that way her entire life. And I immediately had wanted nothing to do with her teaching me intuitive eating because her experience with food has been different than mine. And when that lady said that, I got upset in my head because I also in my head assumed that this woman has never been extremely morbidly obese, but that that term makes her uncomfortable. Correct. How many people have yelled you at that in traffic? How many people have called you? Would you want to be called fat body? How have you been called a fat bitch because you like accidentally turned in front of a dude at a red light?

SPEAKER_03 45:58

Yeah. Oh god, yes. Yeah. Because I bet if you had, you wouldn't like fat bodied. Yeah, right. And and I I can't tell you the last time I was driving down the road and a guy said, Fuck you, you obese bitch.

unknown 46:15

Don't spit up a copy.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

I laughed because that's exactly the experience. This dude was like, you fat bitch, because I turned oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:24

I thought it was like you did when I was 16. Oh, when I was 16, I was turning right at a stop sign, and this guy was in the right lane with his turn signal on to turn right. So I went ahead and went because I thought he was turning right and he wasn't turning right. His turn signal was on, but he was not turning right. And so then I was a fat bitch for pulling out in front of him.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

That was the other one that I thought was um I've been seeing the most that people were like, Did that girl just say it's unethical? I thought for our audience and our show and our lives, that claim specifically that losing weight, you and I have both talked about when we started the show, how nervous we were about talking about and celebrating that we were losing weight. Because 20 years ago that was fine. That's what people wanted us to be doing. Yeah. Right. And now there are people who, you know, I think I'm on up. Specifically, right, think I'm a, but I also, I specifically, I still get upset when people point out that I'm losing weight. A part of me likes, a part of me is like, thank God they're noticing. And then a part of me is like, how dare you even, you know, my weight is the least interesting thing about me.

SPEAKER_03 47:36

God, yes. Right? Like the least interesting thing about me for sure.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

So my but my brain goes back and forth between those two things. So this, this, this blew my mind.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

Absolutely. It's a whole complicated set of feelings. And it reminds me very much of what we're talking about today. That, like, again, when we started this podcast, we were like, it's a complicated thing. I mean, I'm I'm pro everyone existing happily and peacefully together. Whether your goal is to lose weight, not lose weight, love your body. I I hope that you don't want to hate your body, but like I just want everybody to find whatever makes their their mind happy.

SPEAKER_02 48:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:13

You know? Um, but it's nuanced and tricky terrain because there are a lot of people who want to get really angry when other people don't feel exactly the same way they do about it.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

Uh-huh. I think that's a good place to leave it too, is that nuance it served me really well at the time to feel that way and not worry about it. I came out of those couple years being the biggest I'd ever been. And then I had to deal with that. But at the time, I felt really accepted. I didn't know until I got to the city and I met a big fat-bodied show director that put me in a show because I was obese.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

You were selected because of the I was selected because of that.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

He wanted to put on a show with only plus size people, but I had never felt such acceptance before. I got an email on the plane. I was on a trip and I saw it, and I was in the show because of my weight. Like I'm so grateful for that body positivity and acceptance and those people at that time. Yeah. But when I came out of that and I had my kids and I didn't couldn't walk up and down the stairs to go get them. My husband had to like deliver my twins up and down the stairs because I had I mean I had a C-section, but also as that was healing, physically, my weight wouldn't let me do it. I had never experienced such despair. Besides, I don't know, losing a parent. So it's really nuanced. I don't know how to feel about it besides the way that made it look was that she certainly won that one. But I know why the body positivity movement exists. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

Well, we're why. We're why. Yeah. Right? Because because I'm 48 years old and I've just now learning to love myself. At 48, uh over half my life is behind me. What a shame. How many people go their whole lives though? Correct. Even more of a shame. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 50:16

God, what a loaded episode.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

We laughed and we cried.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

Yeah. We laughed, we cried. We got flushed in the face. I really want to hear from people about this. I really do.

SPEAKER_03 50:27

Have you watched it? Listeners, have you watched the show? It's on the YouTubes. Uh, it's called Surrounded, Gillian Michaels. You if you haven't watched it yet, you've probably heard about it, I would suspect by now. Particularly if you are someone who lives in a uh obese slash overweight slash fat size slash whatever body. You've probably heard of it.

SPEAKER_02 50:52

And if it's an hour and a half, which is a big commitment, you can very easily go to the TikTok after you follow us at Born This Way Pod and then look for. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Absolutely. I don't think those clips are even searchable until you followed us on TikTok. And then that's how that is. There's like some sort of thing that's yeah, like you have to follow us first and then you can search those things.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

I don't even think you can get your next paycheck or pay your mortgage until you You're right.

SPEAKER_03 51:17

Now that I think about it, that is true. You have to follow our account before you can pay any of your bills.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Yeah, and if you're not on TikTok, we're also on Instagram and we're on YouTube.

SPEAKER_03 51:28

If you are gonna be kind, we'd like you to follow us on YouTube because we gotta like correct the algorithm a little bit over there.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

All right. We can follow us. Yes, please follow us. You can, if you want more of this chaos, we're also on patreon.com slash born this way pod. Thank you for listening to the show. Thank you for rating the show. Thank you for just being you and being here with us and experiencing this in semi-real time um as it's happening in society with us, to us, and around us.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

Tell us how you feel about this documentary. We're really, really uh it's not a documentary. Tell us how you feel about this rage bait show. We'd love to know. Was it successful? Did you get real ragy about it? Yeah. Uh you can leave us comments on the episode, email us at bornthuswaypod at gmail.com, follow us on all the socials. Covered a lot of ground this week. We laughed, we cried, we did all the things. This journey is real messy. What human experiences? God damn, is it beautiful? I mean, it is a fucking spectacle. It's really something. We're lucky we get to do it, huh?

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Thanks for being my friend.

SPEAKER_03 52:33

Thanks for watching. Thank you for being my friend. Traveling down the road and back again.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

See what happens if I get try and get too vulnerable.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

I'm sorry. I'm the worst professional moment killer. Thank you. For real. I said it earlier in the show. I never feel more seen than when I talk about these things with you, and then I'm like, uh, she gets me. She just gets me. Because you just get me, ma'am.

SPEAKER_04 53:00

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

I love you. I love you too. Send her out.

SPEAKER_04 53:05

Next week.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Bye. You've been listening to the Born This Way podcast. Don't miss new episodes. Make sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts. And come hang out with us on social at Born This Way Pod.